Carole Pope – Xperience History – by Dick Beach.
Originally published in January 2022.
RRX: We’re speaking with Carole Pope. Thanks so much for your time.
CP: Glad to be here.
RRX: You were born in England and moved to Canada and subsequently all around. When did you start to become interested in music and the arts?
CP: I think that started when I was nine. I don’t know. I seemed to always get into circumstances where I can make things happen. I started playing music andmeeting other musicians, who helped me along the way. Eventually, Rough Tradewas born. Rough Trade is still happening. I have a whole solo career.
RRX: As I counted it, you had many interesting gigs, from the time you moved out. As I guess some would say, you were on the dole for a year. You found a job as a hat check girl. That lasted two hours.
CP: Yeah ’cause I’m hostile.
RRX: Let’s fast forward a bit. You met Kevan Staples. The impression I have of that is that you guys are soulmates. There’s a sensibility about who you are and what you do.
CP: Yeah, we just connected right away. He was just great to hang out with. All we did was talk about music, and play music, and go and see music. We were just obsessed with all of that. He’s like family to me. I really love him to pieces. He’s an amazing person.
RRX: When you and Kevan put what we now know as Rough Trade together, there are two things that jump into my head over that. The first of which is that for its time, the production is amazing, just the sound. The second thing is that the lyrics are, in one space of the world, perhaps a little upsetting. In my space of the world, they’re sarcastic and sardonic in an entertaining way. Where did that come from?
CP: I don’t know. I often have a very dark sense of humor. I think the whole family was like that. I read a lot. I think I’m more inspired by writers than other musicians. I remember being a kid and reading six books a week. But I read dark. I’d read Henry Miller, Anais Nin, William Burroughs, and Viollet-le-Duc. Not a lot of happy reading. I think that influenced me. And I definitely have a dark sense of humor.
RRX: If you were to take from the Avoid Freud period one song, do you have particular piece from that period that maybe you’re most proud of or you think says the most about who you are and what the band represents?
CP: Oh god, that’s a really difficult question. It’s hard to pick one song. I would say “All Touch No Contact.”
RRX: Great song.
CP: Thank you. But yeah, if I listen to Rough Trade, I just obsess on different songs, so. I guess I would say that one.
RRX: You’re very public about the time you spent with Dusty Springfield. What about her personality and the time you spent with her has lasted this long? What would be the thing that was maybe the fondest experience or thought you carry forward?
CP: Wow.
RRX: Yeah, I don’t make this easy, do I?
CP: No. Well, she was an alcoholic. That was difficult. But she had an amazing sense of humor. We used to laugh our asses off. We talked about music all the time. She loved music. I was fascinated by her recording process and how she’d just fight for her sound. I just think of her very fondly. But also, I will never, ever date anybody who is an alcoholic, or in recovery, or anything, at all. That really pushed me over the edge. ‘Cause it’s a lot to deal with. She was a brilliant musician and kind of underrated.
RRX: The lyrics and the nature of “Lesbians in the Forest”- on the one hand, it’s an anthem for people in one direction. On the other hand, it’s oh jeez, look at all of these crazy people running around. Where the heck did that come from?
CP: Well, it comes from being at the Michigan Womyn’s Festival, which I wrote about in my book, and the fact that I don’t think lesbians have much of a sense of humor. ‘Cause I just did this EP called “Music for Lesbians.” That’s where it’s from. I love, love, love the Michigan Womyn’s Festival and I’m so sad it’s not happening. But I had to do a little bit of a parody of it. Because lesbians are funny. They have funny, quirky things about them.
RRX: My wife worked at Fire Island pre-AIDS. She and a bunch of people would go out and they’d go to a bar. Her male friends would just look around the room and go, “Mine, mine, yours, yours, mine, yours, yours, mine,” in that sort of way that says okay, I know who these people are, and I understand it. There is a community, whether you are straight or gay, but there’s a community of people who understand that not all of us are playing the same card game all the time.
CP: Of course, of course. And it’s so great to have that community. And yes, more straight people are getting it now and don’t care, which is what I want. I don’t even want the whole thing to be an issue. I don’t think it is as much of an issue especially with the younger people. They’re much more experimental and who cares? There’s so many more important things going on in the world. Who cares? I don’t care who you sleep with. I just care if you’re a good person. That’s the way I wish everybody would approach everybody else.
RRX: I know your brother passed of AIDS, which is heartbreaking. But you’ve recently turned to putting a musical together that follows his life. Where are you with that? How is that going? Where do you expect it’s going to premier and all of the things that go along with creating what really is a big project?
CP: I call it a rock musical. We just did a reading on Zoom with seven actorsreading and a sing-through, which is really hard to do on Zoom because everything has to be pre-recorded. There’s a time lag. So, we did that. In December, we’re doing a scoring workshop. Then next year, we are going to workshop it live in Toronto and hopefully in New York. But yeah, it just costs. It costs a million dollars to put on the crappiest musical because you have to pay all the actors, and musicians. It’s a very expensive endeavor. But I’m very happy with the direction that it’s going.
RRX: We’ve spent nearly the last two years basically sitting with our thumbs firmly placed. How do you manage to keep your head together during a time like this? How did you keep yourself in a good place?
CP: Well, I just stayed away from people, got vaccinated as soon as possible. I went to Toronto to hide out, which was a really stupid move because of the Premier.We did a socially distance “Lesbians In The Forest,” some footages of Peaches that I had that I’ve never used before. What else did we do? I recorded “World’s a Bitch” about COVID with my friends Church of Trees, which is getting a lot of airplay in Europe and Canada still ’cause it’s funny, it’s very funny. What else? As soon as I could, I went to New York to get vaccinated because they didn’t have that together in Canada. Yeah, I got vaxed. I’m still masking up. I’m just trying to be as safe as possible because I don’t trust anybody, really. I trust my friends that they’ve been vaccinated, but in general… You have to be really careful.
RRX: You’re having a hard time finding an apartment in New York. There’s a surprise.
CP: It’s insane.Well, I’d love to live in the West Village, but I can never afford it. That feels like New York, but not New York, you know? I like the whole vibe. I’ve lived in the East Village and yuck. I don’t know what’s going on. New York is really getting very corporate. They really need to straighten up the whole housing thing. Just applying for an apartment is insane. You have to make 40 times the rent and blah, blah, blah.
RRX: Exactly. Thank you so much for your time.
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